One of my 16-year old cats, Hocus Pocus, was running a fever a couple days ago. He felt better the next day, but I decided to take him in for a checkup and maybe some lab work. The vet did routine blood work and decided to x-ray the lungs. An hour later, X-rays back, the vet went off on a new tangent. "The heart doesn't have distinctive edges," said Dr Harbach pointing at the x-ray film with her pen. "We need to do a cardiac sonogram," she advises. I scheduled one for the following afternoon. Well, as it turned out, there was nothing wrong with the cat's heart. (BTW, I changed veterinarians shortly thereafter). The point isn't actually the illness, but the opinions of other people about my spending money on veterinary procedures.
Back at work the next day I told our receptionist about the veterinary visit. Another worker overheard and retold the story to yet more people. Most of them felt it was their job to put me straight about spending money on cats. These were some of their comments:
"You don't spend money like that on cats. You can get another cat for free."
"You're nuts, you need a shrink. You can get some serious counseling for that much money."
"When they get old/sick best to just let them go."
"Cats are not people. It's wrong to spend that money on cats when there are so many people who need help."
These viewpoints made me a little queasy, but mostly they made me mad. Is it just cats that illicit deep resentment or is it all pets? I suspect the sarcasm was directed at me because I gave value to a non-human creature. I'm not exactly shy about expressing myself so I told everyone what I thought about their advise: On the subject of helping people vs animals. My co-workers are driving brand new, ginormous SUV's and telling me to give my vet budget to people. So, I asked why didn't they drive their last SUV for another 10-years and donate those car payments to a good cause? Can anyone, in good conscience, eat lunch and dinner at a restaurant when some poor folks need the meals much more. Why aren't they brown-bagging it and sending the money to the Salvation Army? Nobody agreed with those arguments. It isn't the same thing at all. A new Lexus is a necessity, a cat is a liability. Fancy stuff is important, cats, on the other hand, damage fancy stuff. On and on in that vein. I wanted to ask them to detail their last donations to our Rescue Mission for the homeless, but I bit my tongue.
I've heard the same ideas from pseudo-psychiatry personalities on TV. Pet owners substitute animals for children or human relationships. Isn't it possible to have both? As a child we had pets. I don't think my parents loved me less because we had a couple cats and a collie (altho I was certainly more trouble than all the pets combined;)
I know many of you have pets. What do you think about these arguments? Do you believe people are confused and think their pets are children? Or have they raised their children and now have some additional time and money to enjoy a pet? Or maybe they find raising children with pets helps the children learn empathy and responsibility? Is spending money on those pets somehow taking food from the mouths of hungry children? Do you think people with pets shun their friends and stay at home to interact with animals as a recent publication suggested? I'd be interested in your comments.
I hope everyone has a nice weekend. Stay warm and enjoy your pets--if you have 'em.
See you all next Monday.
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43 comments:
Guess I'll be the first to post. I always kind of hate to be the first, but such is life.
You know I am a pet lover so of course I'll be a bit prejudiced. I must say NO people do not confuse their pets with children, BUT pets are members of the family. They truly have feelings and reward others with so many of those feelings that we can't help but think they are family-they are! Nothing wrong with that at all. Spending money on a cat is your choice and I don't think a bad thing at all. I find your coworkers comments hurtful and out of line. I would never say something like this to anyone. Regardless of how I felt. This world would be a much better place if all cared for their pets the way you do yours Marnie. Just my two cents for what it is worth. I am glad your cat is okay.
Forgot to say, pets show children kindness and love for another that is the ultimate in love. Sure, they love their parents and we love them, but there is something about crying into a pets fur when we are upset as a child that can't be beat by anyone. My son has truly learned selflessness from his little dog. He'll never forget the value of caring for another due to her. And I can never replace the memories of him and all of my kids caring for their pets. Stay home to hang out with pets? Heck yeah, why not. They are good companions-the best!
I always had pets when I was a kid. I think pets teach children alot of good skills. For instance, I had to feed the pets and potty train them. I feel like it helped to learn responsibility. Now that I'm older I have pets because I love them. My dogs also have great personalities and sometimes they do the funniest things (just like kids). I can't really imagine having a life without pets because I feel like its rewarding.
It's interesting, Marnie, that I just posted about my cat, Smokie...who is such an important part of our family that I would always choose to keep him no matter what little things he may do to annoy me:) We treat our dog like a family member too, and have been known to spend money on heart ultrasounds and other scans, medication, etc. I don't look at any of this as an either/or, black/white, good/bad situation. I think it's easy to judge other people but I believe that whatever works best for the people involved is what they should do. If I heard the people in your office I think I'd try to ignore them and just walk away, no matter how hard that is to do. They probably won't understand anyway, so why waste your energy trying to make a point? I'm glad your cat is ok now:) Jan
Marnie,
It never ceases to amaze me that people actually believe they have the right to discuss, dissect and pass judgment on others. It's not their business what you do. From a therapist's perspective...there is nothing wrong with loving a pet and choosing to make sacrifices in order to keep your pet alive. Is is sick?...No. Is it selfish...No. Is it immoral? No. You my dear, are fine! But your coworkers' are suspect!
Gail
~~I am so glad your cat is fine! gail
Marnie,
I managed a vet hospital for two years. Though I've never read this anywhere, all five of the Doctors I worked with (all specialist in specific fields) said the average dog has the mentality of a four year old child. One of our nurses even taught a stray that she adopted to very plainly say “I love you, mama." I spoke to my dear, dear, departed Scotty Dawg just like I would you or anyone else and I am convinced he understood the majority of what I said. He had EXYREMELY human like tendencies. I could show you pictures of him and you would understand. He was the first to receive chemotherapy at his hospital and the last four years he was alive we spent over ten thousand dollars on him to treat his illnesses that sadly we were unknowing causing. BTW the dollar amount was about one third of my annual income at the time. I am on your side. You agreed to accept responsibility for their lives so you must provide them with necessary medical care. Thank goodness due to joint custody with my ex and his new lover there were four of us to cover the cost. BUT, we would have done it all over again for him if he needed it. He has been gone for several years now and rarely a day goes by that we don’t think about him. There! I said my piece!
I'm right there with you, Marnie. I have dogs and cats, but no kids. I certainly don't confuse my pets with children, nor do I treat them like children. But I have been in the dog game long enough to know that there are people who have pets AND children, who feel exactly the same way about their pets that I do.
There are plenty of people out there who don't get the whole pet thing (some of whom actually have pets.) There are also plenty of parents who never really get the kid thing, and neglect and devalue their own children. I feel sorry for both types of people, for the rewards that they are missing out on.
Since I have periodically shelled out lots of money for vet bills - most recently $1200 for Z's MRI - I have expected to get some of the same treatment that you got. When S died, I fully expected someone to try to console me by reminding me that he was "just a dog" and not a child. I actually felt a bit angry and defensive preemptively. However, I was gratified that not a single person ever said anything to belittle my grief over S, or to suggest that I spent too much on vet bills for Z. (This includes my boss who has never had a dog or cat, who doesn't get the whole pet thing, and who believes that all animals should live outdoors.)
If people don't "get" what pets have to offer, then they won't understand their intrinsic worth, at the same time that they don't blink about shelling out big bucks for cold, inanimate things like plasma TVs and PlayStations. It's outrageous that they expect you to justify yourself and how you budget your money. I wouldn't give it another thought. No amount of money could buy me what I get from my animals.
Hi Marnie,
I think this post hit a nerve with all of us, who are animal lovers. We had a Cocker,Maggie, who needed very expensive surgery on her spine. She was a young dog and we loved her. I heard those same comments, when we decided to go ahead with the surgery. She lived for another 10 yrs. and brought us so much joy.
As for raising kids with pets...it can make them compassionate and responsible human beings who may help take care of their fellow man one day.
Tina pretty much hit what I had to say already, but:
I think that absolutely there are people out there who confuse their pets with children, to the point where it might indicate some emotional issues. I worked with such a person once. It was occasionally a little awkward.
I don't think that spending money on an ailing cat, even if it's an old cat, is necessarily a sign of a emotional issues. If nothing else, it's your money, and you can do what you like with it as long as you're not hurting anybody. (It would rise to the level of emotional issues if you were, say, living on bread and water so you could afford the cat's medical treatment, or if you were under the impression that the cat could be kept alive and healthy forever, or if your concern for the cat was so huge that it was causing you to treat the other people in your life badly, none of which seem to be the case.)
And the person who said it was wrong to spend that money on an animal when there were so many people who need help probably deserves to be kicked in the nads, or whatever the comparable sensitive female anatomy would be. Spending money on this animal is helping a person: it's helping you.
Don't let those folks at your work get to you. Let it go so that you can enjoy your holidays, your family... including your cat.
I'm an animal lover. I once paid for a horse of mine to get a cesarean section $$$$ at the Vet School. Both survived, although the odds were against both. The mare passed away last January at age 32. That foal is now a 27 years old, healthy mare. Although they haven't belonged to me these last years, they had good lives.
Cameron
No one will ever know if dogs, cats, monkeys, or camels experience things as humans do. That's why I shy away from saying they have "feelings." Does this mean I think they're inanimate? No. Does it mean I think they shouldn't be treated humanely? No.
My sister cannot have children. She treats her two dogs as if they were a type of human child. Mother has told me that part of the reasoning behind her getting a dog had a lot to do with her children leaving home. She and my father treat their dog almost as they would treat a human son or daughter.
I guess I've been very lucky, none of my pets ever had ailments that required much more than a flea collar.
Regarding major pet expenses like what you and others have endured: it comes down to finances. I would only do what I could, if that meant not being able to afford major surgery or something similar, I'm afraid I would have to euthanize. If you can afford special surgery or other necessary treatment for your pet, I think it's okay to use it for such a purpose.
Finally, I think it's wrong for anyone to attack your morals and make you feel guilty for doing something you thought was right. Shame on them.
If you have a pet, you have the responsibility of taking care of it. And I do. I've had cats with various health issues and I haven't had them put to sleep just to get another cat. Cats seem to be throw aways much more than dogs and now I am angry...
Hi Marnie,
I love animals!
I've had a gallery in Maine for over 20 years and among my favorite subjects to draw and paint are cats and dogs. I feel honored when I'm commissioned to paint a pet and try to capture that special feeling in each of them. I've been fortunate to meet so many people from all over the country who cherish their furry companions as we do.
Ellie May is a very special cat who moved into our gallery when we were in a retail shop space down where the river meets the sea. She actually had her own fan club and provided pet therapy for people on vacation who missed their pets at home.
This is a favorite quote:
"Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened." Anatole France
best wishes and am so glad your kitty is fine!
Nan
Egads, it must be a little tough working with those people sometimes.
I completely agree with what Gail wrote.
The love that people have for their animals enriches their lives, and I don't think anyone should be criticized for taking care of their animals -- after all they depend on us!
Marnie, I know their comments bothered you deeply. I am sorry you let them get to you. Pets aside, although I totally agree with you, you are a grown woman who makes her own way in the world. You DON"T have to answer to them on how you manage your finaces or live your life!
Okay, I'm done being indignant. :)
I'm glad Hocus Pocus is doing okay, and I'm glad you have a diiferent vet.
Well, I agree with much that has been said already. As you can tell from my blog, my pets are like my kids since I don't have human kids. No one has the right to question or tell me what I will or won't do for my pets as your co-workers thought they had the right to do to you. They are so wrong about what they said. Pets are a responsibility, they are not disposable objects and therefore you did the absolute right thing in getting the care for your cat. We have spent a lot of money on care for our pets - enough that your co-workers would really think I'm off my rocker! I couldn't have lived with myself if we hadn't provided the proper care for the furry members of our family. No one has the right to judge anyone.
I'm glad to hear that Hocus Pocus is doing well and I hope your new vet works out better.
Dear Marnie,
The wild birds at my house eat much better than my husband and I do! I think all of life is intelligent. Thus I treat my plants with respect and the dogs, cats, birds, fish, reptiles and rodents, bees and butterflies and humans that have shared my living space at one time or another. I have relationships with the squirrels and the bees. I love them all.
I do find humans can be without compassion. I think your co-workers are un-aware of the value of all life. Mother Nature doesn't say humans are more important than cats. It is the human attitude of "greed and arrogance" that is distroying our planet. A lesson in compassion is my gift to your co-workers.
Happy Christmas to you and yours.
Sherry, who is pleased your cat's heart is healthy as is yours
Q so beautifully expressed exactly how I feel!
Nan
Loving and helping pets, does not mean that a person does not also love and help people. I can't believe your co-workers made those remarks. Imagine what they'd say to me, if they knew how many times I've spent hundreds of dollars to save strays. And I've never been married or had children, so my cats are my family. They've enriched my life. In general, I know people come first. But animals run a VERY VERY close second! They are much much more valuable than things. And personally, I think there are exceptions. This is just my opinion: I think a loving dog or cat is a LOT MORE IMPORTANT than an evil human. And by evil, I mean murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc.
Oops, sorry this was so long. I'm glad your kitty is okay.
We spend money on the things we treasure. Simple, isn't it? !!!
I see from your site that you have a green thumb. Like you, I enjoy my gardening too.
This could lead into all sorts of complicated dialogue - I can't imagine being without a pet (in our case, dog) and I can't imagine not taking as good care of her as I possibly can -
Your money- your business how it is spent.
I'm a single/divorced woman of a certain age & find it amazing what my coworkers will say...
My kit will be 16 next year! I pray our cat friends will be healthy & with us for a long long time.
I think it's possible to love people and pets. I also think we can spend our money as we wish. Thank God, this is a free country.
Your coworkers were rude. Plain and simple.
We have a wonderful cat. Her name is Sophie. We love her.~~Dee
Marnie,
First, I'm sorry about Hocus Pocus, but hope he's feeling much better now! So many very good, thoughtful comments in this post, and I agree with most, especially Tina, Gail and DogGeek.
As you know, we're in the position of having had 2 elderly dogs 2 weeks ago, and now we have none. So, realize that that tempers my remarks here ....
Those people you work with who had the gall to treat you that way are so common, and so thoughtless and consumed so entirely in their own objectified materialistic ways they have lost touch with one of the most basic aspects of humanity: compassion. Instead of even offering (at the least) shallow expressions of sympathy for your dilemma, they chose the money driven --and ultimately selfish-- mindset with their criticisms of you. Pardon me, but they are selfish and full of BS. I would have been furious too, but that's the way people are ... I'm sure that some people where I work mocked me for taking a bereavement day on 12/9 when I found Pepa dead in the kitchen, but I don't care. I've faced that attitude so many times in the past, that I expect it and when someone actually does express some sincere sympathy for a dog's/cat's illness or death, I'm immediately suspect. So have those people "trained us" to expect such reactions. That is so sad, because it's not us who are deficient for loving our animals so much, no, it's them who have lost touch with their own empathy.
Example: back when I was teaching University level, my dog at the time (the dear departed Coco) suddenly came down with pink eye one day and I cancelled one class so I could get her into the vet to get her help. For at least a week I was mocked for cancelling a class because of my dog, by both students and faculty. At that moment I knew I could never stay in that position for the long term. It was only pink eye, I know, but they wouldn't have thought twice about cancelling if they had a sick child and no one would have dared mock them. I was deeply and irreversibly hurt by that reaction.
Which brings me to the whole pets as children thing ... in some ways yes, they are our children, because we make the same basic commitment to them that we do a baby... we assume their care, feeding and training and upkeep of their well-being for the duration of their lives, so yes, they are children in a sense. Anyone who makes the "substitution" argument against this is an insensitive fool, in my opinion. But again, remember that we have just lost the two furry loves of our lives too, so I'm not being totally objective here.
Just imagine if you were to substitute their small child to the economic argument ... so your baby is sick? Why spend all that money? I can assure you that you would be pilloried by them. Again, it's all about the commitments to love and care you make, and whether those are to animals or humans, I see no difference.
Whether it involves the death of a child or animal, the depth of the hurt and void left behind is much the same. I'd remind such a**holes of that if I were there and speaking on your behalf. After all, you're a grown woman and what you decide to do deserves as much deference as their decision to drive fancy new Lexus cars. It's all where we choose our priorities in life, and unfortunately when we choose something out of the mainstream "consume or die" mentality, we often face such heartless criticism.
I am glad to hear you have changed vets now, because it sounds like she was taking you for a ride. We were so lucky to find that new vet when Pepa became ill, and when we get a new dog, she will be seeing Dr. Bollinger first. They were so nice to have sent us sympathy cards for both Pepa and Rolly and everyone who knew them signed with their comments. Dr. Bollinger's most recent one really touched us and made us both cry, and she said: "I'm so sorry to see that two very much loved members of your family have been taken from you in such a short time."
She understands the bonds perfectly, and that shouts volumes about what kind of person she is. Pepa and Rolly were lucky to have such a kind person in charge in the last days of their lives. And one last comment on the economic argument ... I spent almost $700 for Pepa's last care and cremation, and though the hit was hard to take, I don't regret my decision one bit. Nor should you for caring for Hocus Pocus, but I'm sure you're already on that page anyway, so this is just an expression of solidarity with you.
Sorry to be so lengthy here, but as someone else said, this post hit a nerve...
Hang in there, Marnie! You know you have two totally supportive friends over here in deep freeze Iowa! (Where it's currently -5 w/a windchill of -17!)
IVG
Wow, Marnie! You have gotten some great comments. I think it is all a matter of priorities, and you are probably not going to convince an SUV owner to give up their gas hog to donate to anyone other than themselves! I find it interesting the things that people have strong feelings about--and have no qualms telling you! Chemicals versus organic, breastfeeding and child-birth come to mind as well as animal care. You could go on and on, but I think the bottom line is a philospophy towards life. I'd like to think gardeners by their very nature of nurturer hold all life dear, be it animal or plant! I can't imagine what these people would say if they knew I bought my pets Christmas presents! LOL!
Marnie, I thought I should clarify--I don't think just because someone drives an SUV they are bad. I drive a 4-Runner, so I would be including myself in that example. Now that I have muddied the waters even more...
Marnie - How rude of anyone to tell you how you should spend your money. I think that is what irks me most about your co-workers. Although, their views on pets are right up there in irking me.
I'm glad your cat is fine and I hope she gives you many more years of enjoyment.
Your own Values are whats most important !
Take care of who you love and don't think about these shallow people.
Best wishes,
Patsi
We are going a long way tomorrow to be with family so I don't have as much time as this topic deserves. I have lost a son. I have had to eventually put down 4 dogs that I loved and cared about very much. Pets cannot be equated with humans in any rational discussion. Some people treat there pets as children. That's there business and no one elses. I have spent a good deal of money having vets fix hunting injuries and other accidents to my dogs. I chose not to spend $8,ooo on a kidney operation at the Univ. of Minn vets hospital. It had no better than a 50% chance of success. She had suffered long enough. If a person chooses to place a pet about the interest of a child they have lost all common sense.
I do not understand why these people felt like you were asking for their advice in the first place! Sorry to hear that your coworkers are a-holes, but glad to hear that your kitty is OK!
I have only faced a major surgery bill for an animal once. Our beloved 18 year old cat had bone cancer. The vet said that we might be able to save his life by removing his leg. It was a huge decision. Should we put him through all that pain and suffering at the slim chance that it might save his life? The money was not really the issue. He gave us joy and love; not necessarily an easy thing to come by sometimes. He did not give us time to make a decision. We had a few more wonderful days with him, just as playful and loving as ever, and then he passed peacefully in his favorite chair. Taking his leg would not have saved his life. But if it had, I would have spent the money gladly.
Marnie, I would have told the one co-worker, "I don't need counseling; pets provide the best therapy there is."
I'm glad Hocus Pocus (love that name) is ok. This reminds me of taking our late dog Roco to the local university vet clinic when he had a bad spell, and being encouraged to spend lots of money on tests. I went to our local vet instead who assured me that his problems were simply a matter of aging.
You know I am a pet lover, too. Pets provide an unconditional love and a type of companionship that humans can't. They are not substitutes for children or grandchildren! I have both and love them both, but obviously in different ways.
I could go on and on here, but I'll just say you gave some great responses to those people, Marnie. Just think how many people that Lexus could feed!:)
Thanks everyone for your comments. Everyone of you is a devoted animal lover, I see. I'm really glad you feel the same way I do about pets.
The coworkers that made those comments were all men and I don't think they meant to be rude. Obviously they are not cat lovers and they don't understand an emotional issue involving cats. (Women usually speak much more carefully about any and all emotional things). Anyway, these guys feel they can speak frankly to me, and they can. I usually take what they say with a grain of salt. However, this made me angry coming not long after I had heard some TV psychologist spouting off about the negative effects of pets.
Anyway, if I need therapy, I'm in good company. All of my blogging friends can join me in group counseling;)
Marnie
Hi Marnie, those comments by your coworkers were way out of line, beyond rude. No one said, oh I do hope your kitty will be allright? They should read all the garden bloggers and their comments on how to be nice to others! I have had cats all my life, and one dog. I have spent loads of money on vets and had pets euthanized for various reasons, always traumatic. My kids all love animals of all kinds, in part I think because they were raised in an environment that valued the animals. We didn't punish a cat for scratching one of the kids when the kid scared or cornered the cat. We punished the kid. It never happened more than once. As for giving to charity the money spent at the vet, it's apples and oranges.
Frances
Hi, Marnie--I'm in Phoenix and catching up on my reading. I don't have much to add to what's already been said except that the only down side to my vacation is that I miss my dog and cat so much. Good for you for taking such good care of H.P.--and good for you for switching vets, too (I had a vet once who suggested a pet psychiatrist at $50. an hour for my old Aussie who chewed on his paw. I got a new vet, and my old dog lived to be a happy 15, chewing on his paw every day).
I think these might be people who just don't understand what it is to love a pet. They become members of our family. I spent some $ trying to save a little dog we had who had liver problems. In the end we lost him but I don't regret the time we had with him or what we did to make what time he had left painfree and comfortable. He was a wonderful dog that I loved very much.
This is just ridiculous--I can't believe the things people said to you. If people don't want to spend money on a pet, fine; they shouldn't have a pet. I feel having a pet is a responsibility and if you take on that responsibility, you owe your pet the best care you can afford. Period. I volunteer my time in quite a few ways, but I give money to only two groups: a local bird rescue group (with whom I've also volunteered) and a local wildlife rehabilitation group. I've also heard the argument that "animals aren't as important as people" and I say hooey! They don't earn my money so they have no say in how I spend it. The whole point of donations is to give to causes close to your heart. Of course people need help, too, and many organizations exist to help them. And often, people can do things to help themselves, where animals can't. Everyone should give to causes they see fit, and in the end, everyone is taken care of. Happy holidays and I'm glad your cat is OK. My James will be 16 in May.
~ Monica
I don't believe anyone should judge another ... most people love and live as best as they know how ... and we all have our passions! Block your ears, love your cat, and embrace your life, Monica. Holiday hugs!
I love my cats and would do anything reasonable to save them or make them comfortable and healthy. Only once have I had a cat put to sleep and that was because he had a cancerous tumor on his back that after repeated surgeries kept coming back and coming back faster every time. I just couldn't keep putting him through those surgeries. He was the sweetest cat we ever owned and it was the hardest thing I ever did. I don't like the attitude that pets are "expendable" and replaceable. They are creatures we take the resonsibility to care for as best we can.
What an interesting topic Marnie. I am an animal lover too so I would do exactly as you chose. I also agree that we should not be judgmental about how people choose to manage their finances or most of the country would be in trouble (according to statistics). People prioritize differently but I will always respect someone who protects the rights of animals over anyone who thinks they are less deserving. We have to be their voice. I would never dream of owning a pet that was anything other than a member of our family. I'm glad Hocus Pocus is okay. Have a happy holiday with all your fur babies Marnie!
First, it's extremely rude to comment on how anyone else spends their own money (unless it affects them directly, and this certainly does not!) The comments about "helping a lot of people for that amount of money" and "you need a shrink" were particularly obnoxious. It is none of these people's business - and I can't believe they even think that it's OK to make remarks like this to you. It's your money!
Secondly, I would and have spent a lot of money on my cats :)! Glad Hocus Pocus is OK!
I don't have any pets because of my children's allergies, but I think your co-workers were very cruel and heartless in their comments. My mother and her parents have so many entertaining and heartwarming stories about their dogs, cats, and budgies. Each one had it's very own personality and plenty of love to share. A golden retriever made my grandfather's last days on this earth very happy ones.
Heck, I loved my childhood hamster dearly. When I found him dead one morning I nearly fainted from shock and grief, and had to stay home from school!
Usually people who spend a lot of money on their pets, are well balanced...in my opinion. They would not take that money out of the mouth of their babes if a choice had to be made. And you can't buy peace of mind at any amount. But you can have peace for the moment instead of days of torture not knowing. You obviously could afford it without hurting anyone and I would have too.
No one should talk negative on any deed of good will. Cats have certainly saved a person's life. It would be ironic if the said same cat saved one of those people's kids. Then would it have been worth it?
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